[wladicus]

Originally Posted by Gunner

To each, their own. ... Peace.

Quite right Gunner. We do however love to impress others with our point of view and that's one of the many human enigmas.

[Gunner]

Maybe I'm too naive but to impress anyone with my POV is not my agenda.
I love to see all sides and I always try and think outside the box.
Glass half full, glass half empty, or merely a glass twice as large as needed.
A bad trait I have is the joy of arguing with a rock if necessary. Loony? Maybe.
I've seen a lot of this world and can honestly say it's crazy out there.
These discussions let us all have a chance to do something for someone if not
just to expand the thinking mode. Now that I do love.

[wladicus]

Seems like you were just describing me Gunner.
We may be in the same area in thought but based on our background etc. we are putting it differently,
That could also be a similar problem with organized religions.

[Gunner]

I love being in such good company and what you say is spot on.

[wladicus]

Oh joy joy joy as we go down the yellow brick road to the land of what if.
I don't know what the 'H' I am saying but it sho' feels good and I aim to keep it that way.
Good night Gunner.

[Blackmirror]

Is human nature to question life love and Religion

An interesting debate well done everyone for keeping it civil

[Joshuashawharvey]

Originally Posted by Gunner

Think Dave was looking at me on:
"Dude, it was written in Hebrew and all sorts.."
That just qualifies my statement on versions and interpretations.

Ok, lets just say, metaphorically, the ancient Hebrew Bible is a true perception of Gods actual writings.

The fact that the Bible has been translated many-a-time by man is what brings further emphasis to Gunner's statement. How is it possible to prove, that whilst translated, there have not been additions or dismissals of parts of the Bible? How is it possible, that from a single writing of God, such a vast amount of completely contrasting interpretations have emerged?

How is it possible to know exactly what the actual writing of God says? because it's translated? It could have been taken completely out of context yet people will still believe it because it is called the "Bible"

You're more-or-less putting your whole faith and trust into the people who have translated these ancient scriptures.

The word "Bible" is a very generic term. People think that one Bible defines all. You could read two Bibles of the same religious persuasion yet they could be completely contrasting in so many ways.

[Gunner]

True that all the authors of any chapter and verse in the bible have put their
spin on it. It's human nature at the basic level for opinions will enter into it.
Many a party I have participated had the circle story telling line where one
person starts whispering in another ear of any subject only to be a totally
different subject when round to the last person to state what he heard
out loud. Very funny indeed.
To have stories repeated over and over again wind up totally out of sorts many times.

[Daveskater]

Originally Posted by wladicus

If we originate with God, and God is all powerful (omnipotent), then even if He or She chooses to give power to 'the wicked one', that 'wicked one' is also of God and it is a puppet power since God has ALL the power.

I'm afraid you've made an assumption or misunderstood there mate, that isn't what happened.

What happened was one of God's faithful angels saw the world and the people that were created and the power God had over them, and he decided that he could do it better and he wanted the power. The desire built up in his heart and eventually he decided to turn against God.

God did not create the wicked one, he created himself in a way. He was not wicked when he was created. That was his own doing.

[Gunner]

Power corrupts; Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Happens with God/s, Angels, and Humans.
I don't know of any other animal where even a little power actually corrupts.
I may be wrong for I don't really know all the animals that well.

[wladicus]

Originally Posted by Daveskater

I'm afraid you've made an assumption or misunderstood there mate, that isn't what happened. ...

What actually happened, none of use today can tell for we were not there, and to believe what another says about it is, of course, your choice.
That was not my point any way. I am not interpreting what happened - I was not there as a human being. I am merely using the process of logic as applied to debate. We are just debating (which is an intellectual process). Debate begins with a premise and has logical arguments presented to demonstrate that the premise is correct.
However, if the premise is false to start with, then the conclusion will ALWAYS be false no matter how logical the arguments.
In the end - the sort of debate that we have been having cannot be resolved logically. Whatever premise we start with, we cannot demonstrate as fact or true from the beginning, and thus it might be false or it might be true, but we have no way of knowing, especially subjects that are beyond the comprehension of a finite mind.
And thus, this debate has only demonstrated that we leave it with most likely the same beliefs and opinions that we started with.
I suspect that the frustration of logical debate has often resulted in organized religions trying to impress others of their "TRUTH" by various other means, sometimes catastrophic.
Jesus' good news was that the Kingdom of God is here and now, and of course, as he said - I paraphrase - "If they tell you it is over there or over there, believe them not, for the Kingdom of God is within you". It has also been put as the "Kingdom of Heaven" is within you. And I start from there as a meaningful beginning to all of Jesus' teachings - and they fit very well with all other such teachings over the ages.
Now others may have a different view, and that is fine. It is their journey in Life.
One of the wise sayings that I value is: "A Truth repeated is a Lie". And that is because we can only experience what is called truth, it cannot be told to us and be meaningful.
Words (which are thoughts also), are only pointers. They are not the thing in itself. For example the word "door" is not the door. It is a concept which merely points to an object (in this case a door). One must touch, feel, smell, see and in various ways experience many different doors to understand what the word door really means.
When someone points at the moon, thus revealing a wonderous heavenly body to us we look at what is pointed at to get a better understanding of it. WE DO NOT WORSHIP THE FINGER that pointed it out to us. It is the same with religion.
Anyway, I do not wish to alienate you nor anyone else. For me it has been an exhilarating experience participating in this debate or any of the many of which I have been a part. I hope that we can remain friendly in all discussions.
Thank you for your understanding.

[Joshuashawharvey]

Originally Posted by wladicus

Jesus' good news was that the Kingdom of God is here and now, and of course, as he said - I paraphrase - "If they tell you it is over there or over there, believe them not, for the Kingdom of God is within you". It has also been put as the "Kingdom of Heaven" is within you. And I start from there as a meaningful beginning to all of Jesus' teachings - and they fit very well with all other such teachings over the ages.

I find this somewhat interesting. One of the glories of Religion, whether you believe it or not, is that it's always open to interpretation, to pursue that way YOU wish. Rather like a Shakespeare play. He laid the foundations for you to see it in your own light.

Personally, the quote from Jesus you have mentioned, Walt, tells me that we should pursue our lives the way we wish. We don't NEED to be a part of a religious group, we don't NEED others' telling us what "really happened", for religion is within us, for us to perceive in our own way.

If those part of a religious group see God as giving us our own choices, then why would He restrict us to just one religion? Forgive my naivity and ignorance, but I find it somewhat hypocritical of those who practice such preachings inform us that God has given us our own choices, yet they think the world would be a better place if everyone believed in that particular faith. Wouldn't that make us, as Jason has said in another post, like robots? Thus rendering our own choices as moot.

Referring back to my first paragraph, perhaps it's that people take what they read in the Bible too literally, bringing them to think that there is only one way of doing things. As I said, religion is open to interpret the way you wish. Perhaps it's just a matter of everyone, not abiding by, but accepting one anothers' interpretations. Some people are too intolerant and small-minded to realise that.

[Jason]

The Bible, Did God Write It? by Pastor Art Kohl

In a world where over 6 billion people (and counting) reside, it is not entirely difficult to imagine that there are plenty of opinions and beliefs out there. We all want the truth. We all want suffering to end. Each and every person is different, so we search different ways for the truth. It's impossible to get everyone agree on one thing, there would always be someone who would put up an argument.

The bible just gives us an insight what happened all those years ago. I'm not saying it's completely true and I'm not saying you should become a Christian. There are bound to be doubts, because the bible explains things of fairytales. You don't need to be a Christian to believe in God. You don't need to go to church to pray. You can pray anywhere, after all you're still showing love to God.

What "good" man would lie three hundred times and then say lying is a sin?

They would have to be completely insane. All 40 of them.

What I'm basically trying to say is this: Just because someone refers themselves as a Christian, doesn't mean God will save them. Those who accept God's free gift on the other hand... and it doesn't matter whether you're a Buddhist or a Christian ect. Hinduism says that not all Hindus will be saved; Islam says that not all Muslims will be saved, and Christianity says that not all Christians are saved.

You have a Rose. I decide to call it by its name; a "rose", but the person next to me decides to give it a different name and so on and so forth... It's still a rose, isn't it? You see, people interpret things different ways.

1. No one is perfect, and everyone has done something wrong. Right and wrong are not just a matter of opinion—they are rooted in reality, defined by an authority greater than human opinion.
   
2. The wrong things we do hurt other people, and the wrong things they do hurt us. That’s why they are wrong.
   
3. We all want to live in a world in which no one does anything wrong—that is, no one hurts other people. But the fact is, none of us is perfect, and therefore none of us is fit to be in a perfect world.
   
4. People cannot turn themselves around. Some people have pretty good ethics, but even they have flaws. It doesn’t work to let people choose their own ethics, and it doesn’t work to impose one person’s ethics on everyone else. We need an authority for ethics that is greater than humanity.
   
5. We have all fallen short and cannot save ourselves. We need to be forgiven—and we need help that is stronger than human help. We need God.
   
6. The gospel teaches that God has supplied what we need—he supplies the definition of right and wrong; he supplies the forgiveness that we need; he supplies the supernatural power to change us, and he does all this in Jesus Christ.

I'll leave you this song: YouTube - My Savior My God By Aaron Shust

[Gunner]

wladicus: "A Truth repeated is a Lie."

A Lie Repeated Often Enough Becomes Truth.
Different strokes for different folks.

[Jason]

I'm guessing you've never read The Boy Who Cried Wolf, then?

"Nobody believes a liar...even when he is telling the truth!"

[Gunner]

Guessed wrong.
Lie once in court and nothing said again would be credible.

Someone, walt?, said no one would be converted in a debate like this.
People convert all the time. Non-believers convert to believers and vice versa.
Catholics go Baptist, Baptist go Muslim, round and round it goes.

Saw an old fashion river baptism once and as the preacher held a man's head
under water he screamed, "DO YOU BELIEVE!!!?"
No.
Held him under a little longer..."DO YOU BELIEVE!!!?"
No.
Held him even longer..."DO YOU BELIEVE!!!"
Sputtering water he cried out "YES!!!"
"WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE!!!?
I believe ya'll are trying to drown me.

[Daveskater]

Originally Posted by Gunner

A Lie Repeated Often Enough Becomes Truth.
Different strokes for different folks.

How does this even make sense?

I can understand if you mean that if you tell yourself something over and over again you begin to believe it, but other than that it makes no sense.

Anyway, this has gone way way off topic, but people seem to be having a good friendly debate for once.

I probably won't post in here any more though because if I'm completely honest I've gotten bored and fed up with this thread.

[Blackmirror]

Religion could be man made...an attempt to explain the unexplainable

However it gives comfort to some people so it cant be all bad

[Gunner]

Dave: I've gotten bored and fed up with this thread.

Not quick enough before posting a final argument over some senseless drivel
you think I posted. It makes perfect sense to me.
No ones arm is twisted to get involved, stay, or leave. It's called choice...Free will?
Have a good day!!

[Daveskater]

Originally Posted by Gunner

Not quick enough before posting a final argument over some senseless drivel
you think I posted. It makes perfect sense to me.

Whatever mate.