[Joshuashawharvey]

Originally Posted by Jason

My understanding is this: God, as creator of time, is outside of time. Since therefore he has no beginning in time, he has always existed, so doesn't need a cause.

My point was, if you believe a God can exist incoherently, then why cant something else which triggered the so-called "big bang" or any other theory scientists have concluded? Maybe science is yet to discover the correct theory? Maybe their conclusion that something must have a coherent beginning to have prompted their conclusion of the "beginning" is incorrect? Even some major religious groups are now moving towards the opinion that the "big bang" is possibly a valid explanation of the beginning, defying their own beliefs in favour of science. Maybe the incoherent existence of God is just a story devised by founders to allow those around that time who were ill educated (which was most people) to understand our existence in a simpler context, who would have been unable to understand the complexities of science, or even themselves as a way of understanding, because people must have questioned our existence back then, but there was no scientific knowledge. Thus over thousands of years and growing popularity, being passed down from generation to generation as a true understanding, it has grown into a pure belief instead of the story it once was? I am not trying to defy religion, I would never do that, nor am I trying to offend, I am just pointing out some arguments which make me wonder.
To be honest theres the exact amount of proof for God or a big bang, which is none. I have every respect for religion, but for me, as an agnostic who finds religion interesting, I personally find it a little difficult to believe as a result of their being so many, and the damage religion is actually causing. It's not causing peace, which is it's intention. Most wars begin on a holy basis. It just makes it all that more difficult to believe. There are 19 major religions as far as I know of. How on earth am I supposed to pursue just one? Just because one religion is more popular than the rest, that doesn't make it correct, does it? That's why I respect religious people so much. They have made a choice I could never make. I agree with Blackmirror when she said you don't need a bible to be religious. We all know some religions were man-made, but how can we prove which ones? We can't prove religion, it's purely belief, but we can prove science.

I do believe that science will one day discover the answer to everything we wonder, obviously not in our lifetime. That's just my opinion though.

Originally Posted by Jason

It really is confusing. But consider this: You have free-will. You can believe in what you want. That's pretty cool. I know we take it for granted, but we don't realise how lucky we are sometimes.

I try not to take it for granted. I enjoy listening to others' perceptions of "the beginning" and why we are here. I also have a firm belief, though not religious, which I stand by. I do believe that religion is not necessary to live your life rightly.

Originally Posted by Jason

If there was more faith in the world, it would be a better place.

I disagree. I believe their is too much faith, well, too many different perceptions of faith, and as a result it causes conflict.

[Albert Lionheart]

I think the steady state theory has merit - on this scale we do not know the rules so why should there be a beginning and an end? Just because we like a tidy organised universe where things have fixed points for any event does not mean it has to be so in the grander scheme of things.

[Joshuashawharvey]

I agree, Albert. That's why I tend to keep an open mind about "the beginning"

[Albert Lionheart]

There you have it - there was no beginning; it existed.

[Jason]

I have no concrete evidence to prove god exists, but scientists have no evidence for this sudden explosion of light and energy, either. I don't think science will ever be able to provide an answer, but that's just me.

There are 19 major religions as far as I know of. How on earth am I supposed to pursue just one? Just because one religion is more popular than the rest, that doesn't make it correct, does it?

You're right, so the question is: Why pick the God of the bible? The human mind needs something to understand the life as we know it. The idea of, "There must be something else, something bigger out there." Is that why the bible was created? Who knows. The bible has been passed from generation after generation. Over time, I reckon some of it has been twisted, but I also believe some of it is true. You see, it gets harder to believe over time, basically because of science. People are stuck between the two and they don't know which one to believe. But I believe in faith and peace. Do I help someone in need because the bible says so? No, I do it because I feel it's the right thing to do.

Some think of a God as being remote and distant, like he created the universe, then left it alone to operate on its own. Wouldn't it be better to have a God who is involved in the universe, and specifically, in what's happening here on Earth? And what about the unique difficulties, responsibilities and challenges that we face as human beings? Wouldn't it be better to have a God who could understand those things, a God who somehow knows what it's like to endure life in the harsh world he's allowed to exist?

The God of the Bible knows what it means to be one of us. Jesus Christ was not only God's Son, he was God who had taken on a human form and a human nature. "In the beginning was the Word [Jesus], and the Word [Jesus] was with God, and the Word [Jesus] was God. The Word became flesh [human] and made his dwelling among us."5

Of God's Son, the Bible says, "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being."6 He is "the image of the invisible God."7 He is the "Mighty God, Eternal Father"8 who was "made in human likeness"9 and "found in appearance as a man."9 In him "all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form."10 And "by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible."11

Jesus said of himself, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."12 "He who beholds me beholds the One who sent me."13 And, "I and the Father are one."14

Though he was fully God, Jesus was also, somehow, fully man. He hungered, slept, wept, ate. He endured every kind of difficulty we face, and then some. Therefore, the Bible says he is not "unable to sympathize with our weaknesses."15 He was "tempted in every way, just as we are -- yet was without sin."15

So the God of the Bible didn't remain aloof from the pain, suffering and evil in our world. He endured life as we must endure it. In fact, he had a very humble time while on this planet. He was born into a poor household, was not physically attractive, encountered prejudice and hatred, was misunderstood even by family and friends, and was wrongfully executed.

Many people who claim they don't believe in god have gone and prayed when a love one is suffering. When there prayer isn't answered, they immediately assume god is just make-belief. Why won't god stop all the suffering in the world? If god loved us all then he would stop all the evil, right? Is there a reason behind this? The bible says that God will stop all suffering one day, but why is this time taking so long to come? What is he waiting for? See, question after question. That's why I choose to have faith. If people think that's so wrong, then so be it.

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.8 Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.

Are these things that can just evolve from something as small as a microorganism? When a design is made, such as a building, it takes a clever mind to design it. What's to say that us and all the animals have not been created by a clever mind? We are supposed to look after the animals, or so the bible says.The argument to that: What's to say that this cannot evolve naturally?

The earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us. How is this so reliable, so precise? Scientists, IMO, will never be able to provide an answer for this.

And we have food all around us. How is all this possible?

Finally, I couldn't put it better my self about religions than Muhammed Ali:

Rivers, ponds, lakes and streams - they all have different names, but they all contain water. Just as religions do - they all contain truths.

What ever it is, I truly believe there is something out there.

[Albert Lionheart]

In some cases, ignorance is bliss.

[Blackmirror]

Blaise Pascal

Men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions

[Jason]

The true purpose of the Big Bang theory is to deny His existence.

[Joshuashawharvey]

Originally Posted by Jason

You're right, so the question is: Why pick the God of the bible? The human mind needs something to understand the life as we know it. The idea of, "There must be something else, something bigger out there." Is that why the bible was created? Who knows. The bible has been passed from generation after generation. Over time, I reckon some of it has been twisted, but I also believe some of it is true. You see, it gets harder to believe over time, basically because of science. People are stuck between the two and they don't know which one to believe. But I believe in faith and peace. Do I help someone in need because the bible says so? No, I do it because I feel it's the right thing to do.

I couldn't agree more, Jase. Believing in a religion and living your life in goodwill go hand-in-hand.

Originally Posted by Jason

Many people who claim they don't believe in god have gone and prayed when a love one is suffering. When there prayer isn't answered, they immediately assume god is just make-belief. Why won't god stop all the suffering in the world? If god loved us all then he would stop all the evil, right? Is there a reason behind this? The bible says that God will stop all suffering one day, but why is this time taking so long to come? What is he waiting for? See, question after question. That's why I choose to have faith. If people think that's so wrong, then so be it. .

Being an agnostic, I believe it's possible that a God may exist. I believe if a God does exist, he has left us to our own devices, be them right or wrong, but he has no control over it. I'm pretty sure the bible states something similar. If there is a God, why would he create us to just do everything the same as eachother? If there is a point of our existence, what would be the point in that?

Originally Posted by Jason

The earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us. How is this so reliable, so precise? Scientists, IMO, will never be able to provide an answer for this.

Theres a lot of things people thought science would never discover, yet it has. I never underestimate the power of science.

[Jason]

Theres a lot of things people thought science would never discover, yet it has. I never underestimate the power of science.

I agree. If scientists could prove the big bang theory, then it would be the greatest discovery of all time, for sure.

[Blackmirror]

George Carlin:

Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! ..But He loves you.

Everybody has a right to believe in Religion if it makes them content and at peace



Carl Sagan

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

Nice civil debate everyone

[Joshuashawharvey]

Originally Posted by Jason

I agree. If scientists could prove the big bang theory, then it would be the greatest discovery of all time, for sure.

In that case, I hope they get moving and fix the LHC

[Jason]

Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! ..But He loves you.

I'm not sure I agree with that. It doesn't convince anyone IMO. You are given the ability of choice. God doesn't force you to believe in him. And if god intervened with everything, such as stopping bad things from happening, then doesn't that take away our freedom of choice? To me, that would make the meaning of life more or less meaningless. Also, sins can be forgiven. No one is perfect, we all make mistakes. To really enjoy a win, you have to experience losing first.

What I'm trying to say is, just because you can't see God, doesn't mean he isn't real. At the same time, just because the bible says god is real, doesn't mean he is.

Consider different dimensions. Can science AND technology prove the existence of different dimensions. For example, ghosts are something many people believe in. You can't see them, but they knock things over ect. If ghosts are real, then doesn't that prove that there are other dimensions?

[Blackmirror]

I dont think at this time we can prove that God really exists any more than we can prove the Big Bang theory

Maybe one day

What would happen to mankind if Religion vanished??
Now theres a thought

[Albert Lionheart]

We would all find something else to fight about.

[Blackmirror]

Its human nature Albert

[Albert Lionheart]

Of course it is, and (at the risk of getting my head chewed off or blasted by bolts of lightning) all Gods are a comfort zone.

[Gunner]

Ghosts are not real and neither is an invisible man living in the sky.
The world was flat and proved otherwise.
Space travel was impossible and proved otherwise.
The sound barrier was impossible to break until it was.
The only way to really confirm one way or another is to die and see what happens.
I don't know anyone who crossed over and came back to tell of it.
Near death and point of light and all that?
Most times merely an EMT or Paramedic shining penlight in your pupils.
I was near death and given up on a few times. How did I make it?
Not sure. There is a time and place for everyone. If it's time, you go. If not, you stay.

[Blackmirror]

BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Galaxy has 'billions of Earths'

[Albert Lionheart]

And each one empty?