[Scotty]

I believe I posted this elsewhere, but Im sick hearing about "the wmd's that didnt exist"
Does that mean the stuff he used on the Kurds was all he ever had? That's BS.
The guy had months of warning to move them on, and I wouldnt be surprised if they are now in Syria, where we should have moved onto.

This is a job that should have been finished back in 91, but Bush Snr chickened out, when Thatcher wanted wanted to press on. And we had the support of the Muslim nations at the time.

Remember D-Day? Would that have been a success if we had warned Hilter 9 months earlier we were going to invade?

The truth is, we will always be fighting a war as long as some Muslims still continue to interpret the koran as they please. The terrorists believe the whole World should be Islamatic and want to take over, there's nothing we can do about that.

[Joshuashawharvey]

I couldn't have said it better myself! But we're at least trying to do something about it, so this war isn't unjust at all IMO. If our soldiers pull out, we'll just be sitting back allowing them to commit genocide. Who's fault will it be then? These kinda people aren't gonna sit and have a cuppa with you and talk about it.

[Blackmirror]

Its all too easy for us to sit here and cast our opinions either for or against
It doesnt change the facts that lives have been lost and are still being lost
I dont believe Iraq will ever recover..........

"I am against war, since war means destruction, hurt and ruin. Nobody should like war especially when all the great powers of the world gang up against one country in an unequal war and try to destroy all signs of progress and make the country go back to the middle ages. People are starving to death and inflation is murder. Missiles and bombs do not think, they hit and explode-whether you are military or civilian, sick or well, old or young, men or women, you die. Where do you go to hide?"

-- Iraqi woman over 50 years old

People are suffering and The veiled threat is rather worrying

More women are being recruited

Muslim female suicide bombers are on the rise. Even before women attackers claim-ed dozens of lives in Monday’s coordinated attacks on Shiite pilgrims in Baghdad and political protesters in Kirkuk, women had carried out more than 20 missions in Iraq this year — the most violent one yet for the women of Al Qaeda.

Why ??

Female fighters are hardly new; Muslim women have proved adept and astute warriors since the birth of Islam in seventh-century Arabia. That, however, fails to answer the question about why modern women — the givers of life—- are willing to commit suicide for their cause. Many non-Muslims believe that men choose this course for religious reasons, in the hope that 72 virginal houris will greet them as martyrs in paradise. Women, however, do not choose suicide for reasons of faith or feminism. Too few Western scholars acknowledge that women conduct acts of violence to protect their men, country and future generations.

[Joshuashawharvey]

Originally Posted by Blackmirror

Its all too easy for us to sit here and cast our opinions either for or against
It doesnt change the facts that lives have been lost and are still being lost

Very true! Hence why we here just need to just wish the soldiers, and the Iraqi civilians the best of luck!

Originally Posted by Blackmirror

I dont believe Iraq will ever recover..........

Same here, but the least we can do is try to help. Sitting back and doing nothing is just the worst possible scenario

[Blackmirror]

How do we help?
We cant just withdraw all the troops and let them get on with it
They will need help for years to rebuild their country

However if we stay more soldiers/civilians will die

Its a no win situation

[Joshuashawharvey]

The only way there is of helping is to eliminate the terrorist groups. We all know we won't be able to eliminate all of them, but some is better than none IMO!

As I said in one of my previous posts, war is war, and you expect lives to be lost, no matter how terrible the thought of it is. But the bottom line is, helping to save a nations life, isn't a waste of your own life, is it?

As Blackmirror said, Iraq will never recover, but the least we can do, is what we're doing now.

[Jason]

What you are forgetting is, the troops are trained to do the job over there. I was talking to some Royal Marine commandos, and they try to comfort the families by telling them that they are trained to do the job ect.

People are not forced to sign up to the army these days, it's a choice. Lives are to be lost in any war, but just think that these lives have helped make the world a better place.

Eventually, I do believe iraq will get better -- we just need to give it time. Heck, the soldiers aren't even bothered of all the bickering that goes on back here.

[Joshuashawharvey]

If Iraq is to recover from all of this, it will take decades at the very least.

[MightyQueenCarolyn]

My naivity suggests that we give them the money that would otherwise be spent on war and have them use that to attempt to rebuild.
From the photos I've seen, and from the soldiers I've known reports, it seems insurmountable.
10+ years more of this is unfathomable to me.

[Joshuashawharvey]

I'm not suggesting we'll be at war for another 10+ years, eventually we will pull out, and they will be left to their own devices. We can't recover the country for them, once our soldiers are out, the rest is up to them.
It isn't all about money, Iraq is potentially an extremely rich country, especially with all the oil that comes from there, but being run by Saddam for the past however long he was in power, hence leaving the country in such a dire mess. Providing them with money would only end up in the terrorists pockets, and then the genocide continues......
The terrorist groups need to be eliminated, and no amount of money will alter that, thats all there is to it.

[MightyQueenCarolyn]

I didn't mean to say you did suggest that, Joshuashawharvey and it's nice to meet you, by the way , but the word from the leaders is that it could take 10 or more years before "mission complete".
How do we complete this mission when there are terrorists recuited every day?
How do we eliminate them ALL?
It's a constant game of catchup, in my opinion and one that can't be won, I fear, before so many more souls are lost.
We're never going to change the way "they" think, regardless and may make them hate us more, the longer we try to squash them.

[Blackmirror]

It has been said that the Iraq war has strengthened terrorism around the globe

[Joshuashawharvey]

lol oh right hehe. Nice to meet you too

Well I have to say, I agree with you. It's obviously near impossible to eliminate all of the terrorist groups, but the best we can do is minimize the amount, which is what we are doing. Hopefully our troops can get it to a contollable amount that once we pull out, the Iraqi's themselves will be able to deal with the rest.

People always look at the bad affects of the war, without realising that doing nothing has consequences too. If we pull out now, what will happen? As you said the terrorist groups are recruiting all the time, so they will grow, become stronger, and the next thing we know, they're back in full control of Iraq and Afghansitan, making all the years work our troops have put in worthless, terrorist attacks become more frequent, the likelihood of them gaining WMD's becomes more-so..... You get the point. If people want to sit back and do nothing, they might as well just go and dig Saddam back up and put him back in power.

There is no alternative to what our soldiers are doing now, they're doing all they can. Maybe the backing of other nations wouldn't go a miss. Without the help of other nations, it becomes even less likely that we will win.

Maybe so, Blackmirror, but don't you think terrorism will increase more so if we do nothing about it? They will be given the freedom to do what they want. Wiping out every group they dislike. This is the whole worlds business, whether people want to believe that or not!

[Ukkonen]

Just blow up the whole world. I think US has enough of nuclear warheads to pollute whole planet.

[Blackmirror]

Originally Posted by Joshuashawharvey

Maybe so, Blackmirror, but don't you think terrorism will increase more so if we do nothing about it? They will be given the freedom to do what they want. Wiping out every group they dislike. This is the whole worlds business, whether people want to believe that or not!

No thats not what i meant
We have to protect our own countries

The point i was making is that the Iraq war has acted like a catalyst
fuelling the terrorists..

When women are prepared to be suicide bombers thats worrying
We bring life

[samjohnson]

Originally Posted by Scotty

I believe I posted this elsewhere, but Im sick hearing about "the wmd's that didnt exist"
Does that mean the stuff he used on the Kurds was all he ever had? That's BS.
The guy had months of warning to move them on, and I wouldnt be surprised if they are now in Syria, where we should have moved onto.

This is a job that should have been finished back in 91, but Bush Snr chickened out, when Thatcher wanted wanted to press on. And we had the support of the Muslim nations at the time.

Remember D-Day? Would that have been a success if we had warned Hilter 9 months earlier we were going to invade?

The truth is, we will always be fighting a war as long as some Muslims still continue to interpret the koran as they please. The terrorists believe the whole World should be Islamatic and want to take over, there's nothing we can do about that.

Oh I agree with that completly. I said it before (I think) that just because we didn't find WMDs doesn't mean that there isn't any.

Originally Posted by Joshuashawharvey

These kinda people aren't gonna sit and have a cuppa with you and talk about it.

Exactly.

Unfortunately war means that people are gonna die. There is no way around it. Its sad, but like somebody said earlier (can't remember who) they sign up for the army. Its a choice and I respect anybody who makes that choice and fights for my country. Or any other for that matter.


*edit*

Ok don't think I am picking on you MQC cuse I'm not.

MQC you said that when 9/11 happened you were really afraid. And I understand that. I was 11 yrs old when it happened. We went out later that day and I was always expecting a plane or something to fly over our heads. Btw I lived like 2 hours away or so from NY city. Anyway.
You also said your anti war. Well how can you say that when you don't ever want what happened to America to happen to Canada? By not going to war more attacks would have happened. And maybe they would have attacked Canada. And by pulling out now would probably mean more attacks on our homeland. By going to war we are able to prevent the attacks on our homeland by keeping the terrorists busy (if you will) over there.

To me that sounds like your kind of contradicting yourself.
I am sorry if that sounds mean or anything. I didn't mean it to be.

[Joshuashawharvey]

Originally Posted by Blackmirror

No thats not what i meant
We have to protect our own countries

The point i was making is that the Iraq war has acted like a catalyst
fuelling the terrorists..

When women are prepared to be suicide bombers thats worrying
We bring life

Yeah I see what you mean, but what I mean is if we did nothing, that could have been even more of a catalyst and terrorism could have grown even more rapidly over these past few years, as they obviously want people to respond, so they will do more and more until they get a response.

It's worrying that anyone would do it at all, regardless of whether they are a man or woman.

And Sam, I totally agree with what you just said. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion though, and i'm not out to change theirs, just express my own.

All I can say about war is, I am not against it, and there's much, much more to it than just killing. Anyone can be as small-minded as that about anything.

[Blackmirror]

What would have happened if Iraq had not been invaded..?

Sadam should have been taken out but by an elite force not by invading the whole country

As to the growth in terrorism who knows really .
Yes they have to be stopped thats for sure

[Joshuashawharvey]

Who knows? But the reality of it is, we're there and that's that.

Yeah, Saddam should have been taken out, and I think we're all glad of that, but it wasn't just Saddam was it? What about all of the terrorist groups working with him, they are all across Iraq. If we had taken Saddam out and then left, Iraq would have just ended up in the same position as before we even got there, maybe worse. Iraq could have gone into total meltdown.

Terrorist groups like the Taliban and Al Qaeda aren't just going to stop what they are doing by just talking to them. The only way to stop such terrorists, is by force of an army.

[Jason]

Even if Hussein was taken out by an elite fighting force (SAS, SBS, basically the UKSF), we would have had to invade Iraq sooner or later.

Bickering about it gets nobody anywhere. The government made the choice to enter Iraq -- we cannot turn back the clock. Like I've already said, pulling out now would be a complete waste, and if I was a soldier, I wouldn't be an happy camper.